Gripes about the cost of internet in Duluth/Superior

Well, it turns out the discounted internet I’ve been getting from Charter (for the past 10 years) came to an end. Unless you are a new customer or have the “triple pay” it costs like $58/mo. I don’t need 30mpbs, 10mpbs is fine for what I do … and would happily pay $30/mo for it.

But no luck, Charter is like “Everybody wants really fast internet”, so 30mpbs is the slowest we offer. As a nerd, I blame other stuff … bad programming, too much javascript, not enough RAM (I have a portable netbook that I bring around the house), even the website is overloaded, but seldom is it my 15mpbs connection that is the bottleneck. But Joe Blow will just blame the internet for being slow.

C’mon people, the Bandwidth of a DVD is only about 4mpbs and Metflix is barely above that.

People complain about bandwidth caps. I’m all for them. Why should I subsidize others .5 TB a month use when I use maybe 20-40GB/month?

To me, it appears to be

  • Charter: $58/mo 30mpbs
  • CenturyLink: $39/mo 3mpbs (based on my address)
  • Airfiber: $40/mo 3mbps (can’t find pricing anymore)
  • Satellite: $70/mo for even slower than that
  • Fiber optic: ??? There is a line across the street from me…not sure who to call
  • Ronja: Look it up…pretty cool, but you need line of sight and someone willing to share
  • Tethering my phone: $15/mo, 2mpbs … until they cut me off for TOS violation
  • WiFi from neighbors: $0/mo, varies … but everyone in the area locked down their connection
  • Dialup … requires a phone line and ends up costing like $39/mo anyways … but this is 2013 and why are we even discussing this?
  • T1: Slow and expensive … is there some benefit that I don’t know about?

There really is a need for a $20/mo 5mpbs service for all the people in the area who can’t afford the outrageous costs of internet today. You can pick up a computer for $25 to $50 that is perfectly fine for browsing, keeping in contact and learning … possibly to help with employment and bettering oneself, but it seems more and more the internet is for the well to do.

27 Comments

Sonya

about 11 years ago

For income-qualified households, there's Century Link's Internet Basics program.

marketfried

about 11 years ago

Are costs different in other cities?  Is Duluth any different?

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

I have a friend in the Twin Cities who says "I pay 25/month in the cities for 45."

JustJen

about 11 years ago

Thanks for posting this! I was going to post something similar as I am wanting to change internet companies. I am still using Clearwire and it's painfully slow.

huitz

about 11 years ago

Being a former network engineer, I'm appalled at myself for not researching the options of plugging in from Duluth. I've just silently accepted the fact that the easiest connect is also very expensive and untrustworthy, and that's life. In other words, I just smile and bend over.

Here's basically how Charter works. They congregate traffic largely by physical location just like they do, well, like they do with TV. By leveraging an existing infrastructure (cable), they can afford to provide a lopsided service at an exorbitant cost to the consumer, and they can do this because they effectively have a miniature monopoly.

At the hardware level, internet traffic is spurious, which is very unlike predictable broadband such as TV broadcasting. Cable, as it turns out, is a kludge when used for packet switching. It never was meant for bandwidth that frequently requires complex routing. So, your 30 Mpbs is a max spike bandwidth, not a guarantee.

A T1 is fast. It's slow fast, as in the tortoise vs. the hare fast. It's fast, because it's an absolute bandwidth, being a dedicated trunk direct to the PSTN. Cable, on the other hand, provides the illusion of fast, because it's a shared trunk over a medium that was designed for broadcast purposes -- push technology, not pull technology such as the web.

In an ongoing effort to re-brand how the cable network appears to the consumer, they even started the On Demand marketing ploy, where it appears that you can ask for a movie or show whenever you want. This isn't so hard to do from the routing perspective so long as everyone doesn't try to do it (pull request) at the same time.

This is where the underlying cable internet problem festers. I like to think of it as the tandem conundrum. You have to pedal in the same gear and cadence your partner does to get from point A to point B. But, in this case, the tandem is not just two people who must agree, it's a few city blocks of people who all have different destinations and want to pedal at their own spin.

Upshot: No one person needs more than 10 Mbps spike traffic to the internet as technology stands today. No one person needs more than 1 Mbps guaranteed minimum bandwidth to the internet. Charter does the extreme (and must do so due to the nature of the underlying medium). It provides a spike of 30, a monthly traffic cap, and promises nothing absolutely.

Side note: the Charter bundle package is, as experienced just recently by a friend of mine, laughable. Charter, for whatever reason, decided to reboot a couple of their routers in her area around 3 a.m. one morning. Well, when that happened, she lost her phone too. One of two things happened. They either do this every once in a while for maintenance and really don't give a crap that somebody might actually be working from home, or the service is really that unreliable and should be expected to go out every once in a while. It wouldn't be so bad, but when it went out, she effectively had no way to communicate with the outside world, because the phone went out too; no way to call support. For what it's worth, though, if this ever happens to you, Charter is good at doling out credits for service problems. So, make sure you mention "reimbursement" if you find yourself on the line with their tech support.

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

I bought my cable modem summer of 2003. Still running fine, and fully capable of 34Mbps. Up until about four years ago, I would have random outages, slowness, DNS problems about once a month. Since then, it just works. If I'm going out of town for a few days, I unplug it, but other than that, it runs 24/7. 

Charter wants to give me a new modem ... not gonna happen, I helped someone with one of those and got problems all the time ... headache to set it up and was on the phone with support for several hours.

Special K

about 11 years ago

Ugh, I used to have Centurylink DSL (I believe it was Qwest at the time) and it was horribly slow and inconsistent, practically 56K level terribad.  Every time we'd talk to customer service they'd give us an excuse about their DSLAM hardware having issues, and sorry, no refunds.  After 3 months I said screw it and went to Charter.  Exorbitant maybe, but at least it works.

huitz

about 11 years ago

@mattcintosh...

Hmm. I'm surprised a little, because my friend was forced to replace her modem recently (unrelated to the outage problem) just to maintain connection. Apparently they had upgraded their modems in her area.

They were cool about the process. The only complaint I have is that they weren't proactive about it. They waited for her to complain about failing service before they fixed it.

As for internet connection in general, I often wonder why businesses try so hard to bring WiFi to consumers when it shouldn't really have to be that hard. I'm surprised a place like Duluth hasn't already started something akin to Seattle Wireless.

Why pay Charter for what is basically collective networking when we can do it ourselves? The presence connect can maybe even be government sponsored. They buy a couple of T3s through a telephone contract, distribute wireless repeaters or use existing connections with a tax write-off for those that submit to the Borg. Could it be? Could it happen that, voila, internet presence becomes free (free as in free beer, you have to bring something to the party, of course)?

I'd imagine touting Duluth as one of the select few "completely wireless cities" up north would not be a bad thing. If you think about it, hotels and businesses offering wireless as a luxury item is becoming silly anyway.

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

Lemme get out the tin foil hat. I don't run WiFi in my home since I still don't trust it for the security, lower performance than ethernet, or because of the frequency it runs at. WiFi runs between 2400 and 2500 MHz. Microwave ovens run at 2450 MHz. 

There is something called "Microwave Burn." It can be quite harmful to eyes (conjunctivitis, Cataracts). Sure, its rather low power from the router, but its always on.

[img]http://www.perfectduluthday.com/wp-content/uploads/comments/WARNING_fs.jpg[/img]

Nick L

about 11 years ago

Everything I've heard about Charter is if you call to cancel, they'll reinstate the introductory rate.  Friends of mine tell me this for internet, TV, phone, bundles, etc.  Could be worth a try.

huitz

about 11 years ago

Touche. There is no shielding with wireless. But you should know that the power to bandwidth ratio is incredibly small. You are, after all, not trying to defrost a chicken. The actual frequency becomes insignificant with the amount of watts being used.

Is the power usage for wifi heavy for a portable device. Absolutely yes. If you want to prolong your laptop battery (or smartphone/table for that matter), disable wifi on it while not using the connection. But, the physical effects on a human organism only becomes apparent at close distances (like millimeters). To put it into perspective, your GPS that communicates directly with satellites floating thousands of miles above your head (also operating on really low power) have no ill effects on you whatsoever.

You have much more exposure to a powerful EMF for a minute near the substation on Michigan St. west of downtown than you do a lifetime of using wireless in close proximity.

On the microwave note, though, microwave ovens do emit radiation even with their shielding. The field only goes about a cm out from the box on modern ovens, though.

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

I know that C-band satellites have about a 40 watt transmitter (using something called a Travelling Wave Tube, which is a type of vacuum tube ... but since space is a vacuum, it doesn't even need to be sealed)

Directway/wildblue use about a 1-2 watt (VSAT 3-5 Watt) transmitter for uplink and just a few seconds exposed to that is very harmful. As for GPS, it doesn't "communicate" ... is one way, receive only. Kinda like an FM radio. That sign above is at the transmitter, but the radio receiver itself is harmless.

DECk37

about 11 years ago

@Special K Same here, I also had it when it was Qwest, absolutely horrible service. It was like the dial-up era, only less reliable!

It was so bad I wouldn't be able to do my job if I still had them. I'd get the run around too, like it's some issue over by someplace near me and it'll be fixed by next week. Well when next week would come and go with no change, I'd call them again and some other magical issue would cropped up, no mention of the original issue. I dropped them like a hot potato after that, I had been burned long enough.

I switched to Charter too, kinda' trick trying to just get their internet since they love to bundle everything, but I did it and I've been very pleased with it ever since. It is a bit expensive, but by far so much faster and much more reliable than Qwest ever was. In the few years that I've had it, I've only had one major outage, and they did everything they could to make sure it wasn't on my end. They checked the computer, gave me new modem, & replaced all of the wiring from the poll to the modem at no charge just to be sure. It was then determined something external along one of the main lines. They said it could be up to a week to get it found and fixed, but it was back up within a day or so.

birdsandboards

about 11 years ago

What a good topic.  you couldn't be more on the spot that we need a inexpensive alternative for us "low need" internet users.  

I've got Clearwire, which is now Clear and owned by Sprint, simply because it's the least expensive. It is satisfactory for surfing the web but as soon as we want to watch Netflix ... Arrghhh buffering. It is the worst in the late evening because I figure that's the time of highest demand on the limited bandwidth. I don't think you can actually get a new account in town anymore. That is another clue that they've maxed out their bandwidth capacity. Maybe the new corporate ownership will invest in upgrades ... not! It has been failing me on a regular basis lately and I'm desperate for alternatives. It is especially frustrating because I'm paying for Netflix and can't use it half the time. 

In the past I've been told by an outfit in Superior that Charter actively prevents new service providers from entering the market. As someone mentioned, they have the local monopoly. Their only reasonable competition is Quest/CenturyLink, another giant corporation. No local providers.

The idea of citywide wireless is fantastic. I know Moorhead has had it for years now. It does seem like it could be a fantastic selling point. They could charge a nominal fee for 5-10 mbps and make a lot of people happy.  Since Charter is overpriced and CenturyLink is just as unreliable, then I guess I'm just stuck with the devil I know.

secretseasons

about 11 years ago

Mattcintosh - your tinfoil hat is 1000 times too small. Wireless internet runs at 2.4 GHz (and other gigahertz) frequencies, not MHz frequencies.

secretseasons

about 11 years ago

Embarrassed. You are correct about the frequencies.

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

Yeah...I know a thing or two about communications. All self taught too. I tore down and set up a 10' C-Band dish myself (even planting the 160lb pole alone). Had to learn about LO frequencies and the differences between LNA and LNB (and why receivers take in 950-2150 MHz) and that uplink and downlink frequencies are different and getting a multi LO Ku band LNB.

I once took an A+ network certification sample test, late at night, after a few drinks, and still passed it.

Clearwire always sucked. If they had had an antenna port where I could have run a 20 ft cable to a better location, it might have been decent, but I remember people with them and they were really slow and always losing signal.

I see the signs that 4g is now available in the area. There is a limit to wireless bandwidth. 6 bits per hertz. We aren't that efficient yet, but when we get there, to go faster, it will have to be more channels bonded together.

Herzog

about 11 years ago

Know what the problem with this world is?  Nobody fucks anymore.  Like animals do.  All compulsive like.  On a whim. You know what animals don't do? Social media.  Cows and pigs don't sit around all addicted to their phones and their computers, waiting for a silly little text from an unimportant emotionless prick who doesn't even really exist.  If you sit there the whole time in a bar playing with your little toy of a soul sucking demon machine wondering where all your joy went, then maybe you would be better off as garden fertilizer instead of the pussy you've become. 

 You can't fuck and phone at the same time. Pure and simple. A phone can help you find your dick, and maybe even tell you how to use it, but if you have to do that, then you're fucked regardless?  Know what the problem with people is nowadays?  It is not phones, it is not the interweb.  It's that they're boring.  I give you exhibit one through seventeen of all the previous comments. They've all sold that drive they once had to do something fun and crazy on a wild hair for 4G internet as they sit around wishing they still knew how to masturbate because there's a new smartphone commercial on the T.V. right now.  The phone is smart all right, it took everything you held dear and turned it into a corporation that's two clicks away from building an army of terminator robot machines to clean the earth of this pestilence you called humanity. I guess sex is pretty gross and embarrassing. So what's the difference? On those rare special occasions I still make the fuck, I can certainly see where this could go the way of the dinosaur. To make way for the Rise of the Machine. All because we couldn't wait for our next text. Go fuck yourself 4G network.

huitz

about 11 years ago

Repeaters lessen the power required; a bunch of small transmitters instead of a giant KBJR/KDLH/NBC/CBR/whatever antenna. I learned this (unfortunately) working with accounting databases.

It's obvious where I'm going with this. It's a socialistic idea but fits the paradigm, especially for a place like Duluth. It's a good wager; meaning that there's little cost and chance for failure/embarrassment with a possible big reward.

Back to engineering/tin hat. You wouldn't need it. You are already surrounded by wireless. The thing is, you just can't use it on a broad playground. We have a fiefdoms competing for air share that shouldn't be at war.

huitz

about 11 years ago

Herzog. Good point, but that's like me saying I shouldn't buy bottled milk because I can't eat cereal while fucking.

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

Herzog. It's pretty much like that in Japan.

Why have young people in Japan stopped having sex?
Japan's hottest new sex trend is not having sex
More Japanese young people refraining from having sex, report finds

Yeah, people are tending too be too busy, myself included, but I'm using the internet to make money, quit my job next year and not have to work my tail off anymore. I found someone recently that is really into "stuff other guys wish their g/f would do" so maybe the future is looking a bit brighter.

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

I remember years ago seeing demon.co.uk showing up a lot. Turns out they are still in Business.

https://demon.net/demon-business-broadband/

19Mbps Business class internet for £17.00 per month 

Thats like $27/mo

mattcintosh

about 11 years ago

Dang... I wish we had prices like this...
http://www.uswitch.com/broadband/packages/#products=sort%3Dmonthly_cost

Matt Hill

about 11 years ago

And yet again... Statement Amount:	$58.01

I'm calling them every month and wasting 15 minutes of their time and mine asking about promotions and complaining how I have no need for phone/TV and I'm not a heavy internet user and would be happy with 12 Mbps. I even read that Charter's CEO is surprised that people want internet and not TV.

Bob Hansen

about 10 years ago

We just bought a home in Hermantown, the so called progressive city suburb of Duluth. Called Mediacom to hook up internet. Told them that we were @ 800 feet from the road, utilities run underground. No problem, $109.89 hook up fee, be there Thursday. They came, they saw, they left. Several phone calls later, they sent a field engineer out. He explained what would need to be done. His estimate was $3100. ? Then pay $60 a month. 

Called Century link, they stop service @ 100 yards down the street, no plans to extend any farther. Air fiber ran its antennas 40 feet up and got no signal. A 4g hot spot is uber expensive for 3 gigs, which can be used up in no time. The fiber optic system runs under our driveway, but no one knows when or if it will be up and running. While my wife loves our new home, I wish we had never moved here.

Matt Hill

about 10 years ago

800 feet? I wonder how far RG11 cable can be run. I know a neighbor where I grew up had a good 700-800 ft of RG11 from the pole to his house. Another option might be to put a box up by the road and have the cable modem and fibre router in it. Then just run fiber to the house..

Gigabit ethernet over fiber, depending on the fiber and setup can be run for 720 feet to 75 miles.

And if you already have your own fiber line to the house, whenever the fiber by the road is activated, they can just plug into your wire.

Something like this by the road and something like this in the house.

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