Looks like your comments are back up, John.

Jennifer, my guess is that if Duluth sells the NorShor, it won't be until after they've put the skywalk through the  (heritage landmark status protected) Temple Opera Block and the NorShor/Orpheum garage to connect with the Hotel Duluth/Greysolon Plaza.

Starting a new post does engender some bit of ownership to the thread. And with ownership is the ability (or the right?) to block or delete comments. I'm not judging the merits here, just suggesting that not every forum is loaded with protections or rights for those that post comments.

1. Ramos said, "And now you can skip all the meetings."  That isn't sarcasm?  If that ain't sarcasm, what is?

2. Strictly speaking, spam is done with a spambot and usually is an ad for something.  People sometimes use the word spam just to mean "unwanted post."  Sometimes spam is used to mean "post in violation of the website rules."  

Ramos said his posts were not spam because they "made a valid point," which might imply that invalid points are spam.  I was using the term spam in a joking way following Ramos' lead and saying that many posts do not make a valid point.  Just a joke.

But, since DEDA money used for the NorShor cannot possibly be used for infrastructure, one might think that it is an invalid point to suggest that the NorShor money be used for infrastructure.  So, ironically, what Ramos said might be spam if we follow Ramos' own use of the term "spam."  

But in the end I was mainly just making sarcastic jokes about Ramos' sarcastic jokes.  This is a common form of PDD post!  And PDD is a place for lots of sarcastic posts about sarcastic posts about sarcastic posts that are flirting with being invalid (like this one).

Thankfully, most discussions on PDD are more valuable than this one has been.

Yes, this discussion does not have the value of the "House of Donut" thread where David posted on the importance of Duluth getting a 24 hour Kinkos to be a real town.  But how could a rambling discussion of DEDA, taxation, sarcasm, and spam be more important than a rambling discussion of Kinkos, butter bars, meatball sandwiches, old signage, Last Chance Liquor, mothballed pool halls, hippies, and donuts?

Wait, I'm rambling again.  David is right.  This thread really isn't that important.  But I could really go for a 24 hour Donut place! (no joke)

To get back to one of the main points, one question is "when is it appropriate for the original author to use the "flag as spam" button?"  The "flag as spam" button is virtually useless for flagging actual spam (spambot ad spam, which is extremely rare at PDD).  The "flag as spam" button isn't really for flagging "real spambot spam" at all.  

The "flag as spam" button is useful to flag irrelevant or inappropriate comments.  Barrett Chase brought up a good point that the original author should have some leeway on what is irrelevant or inappropriate.  It strikes me as potentially within this leeway to use the button to filter our sarcastic comments about "never going to a meeting" in a serious discussion about water infrastructure.

Sam:  This thread isn't about water.  Discussion about water should be where people reading about water will see it:  the original post. This post is about people communicating in someone else's back yard complaining that the owner of that back yard might or might not prohibit some of the complaining they want to do.

Yawn.  I've celebrated the Cheerleader as one of the best blogs in the city, ever, before on PDD.  This is kerfuffle over nothing, tarnishing that awesomeness.

"I deleted the comments because they are two different sources of money. It creates misunderstanding."

Why not use the thread to clear up the misunderstanding? 

The remedy for false, ignorant, or inaccurate speech is more speech. 

I can't agree that this thread is unimportant. I am disturbed that an elected official would use the tools she has to silence opposition. Taken in its most charitable light, her response is patronizing. We can't be expected to understand these funding nuances, so we just won't discuss them. 

In a democracy, we discuss things. In a democracy, politicians respond to their critics, or ignore them. They don't muzzle them.

Spam is not "unsolicited bulk messages" it is a lovely canned meat made by George A. Hormel and Sons. It was made possible by the fact that George invented the proccess of "Vaccum Packing" meats. Any GI in a trench in WWII or the Korean War will tell you it is the greatest thing ever invented except for the self opening beer can (you used to need a can opener youngster). Anyone from Hawaii will tell you it is practically the state food. Hawaiians eat more Spam than any other meat. So with that in mind Spam is never to be deleted! It is to be fried and served with a side of corn meal mush and syrup. (Insert annoying smilely faced thing here).

Wait. We can delete posts?

And, the "Pervy perv" post seems to lend credence to the notion that PDD is a "spammer's paradise" in a least one sense of spam.

But isn't 'annoying' and 'antagonistic' in the eye of the beholder?  And sure, if the defining-beholder is one of the PDD moderators, well, as others have pointed out, it is your business, literally, to maintain the sense of what you want your blog to be. 

But a politician, using the blog to push what they want?  That is another matter altogether.  I thought I liked Julsrud; but political censorship and I do not get along; and it is uncool, very very bad, for her to have deleted a maybe-annoying, but perfectly valid, response to her posting.

The fact Ramos felt the need to put his three thoughts into three seperate comments seems kind of spammy.  Not in the traditional sense of spam being unwanted advertising.  But spammy in the unnecessary volume sense.  How annoying would it be if everyone broke their multiple thoughts into one sentence seperate comments?

+1 Barrett

Government financing (actually, finance in general) is a complex issue.  

Please, please, please, remember that cities, counties, and school districts are creations of the state, and their powers and limitations come from the state.  There are ton (literal ton) of rules from State (or Federal) bodies that local governments need to follow and CAN NOT change, no matter how goofy.  And it isnt as easy as "we" (all the citizens) in the state or nation saying "lets get rid of all these goofy laws"....one person's goofy law is another person's right and just and sensible law.  

Good gravy, if married couples don't always agree on issues, why would you expect city councils or state legislative bodies to agree on issues.  If you can't gt 2 people to agree, why would you expect 9, 100, or 5 million people agree?

Doesn't DEDA money come from hospitality tax?

I thought it was for the express purpose of economic development. To me, that means spending money specifically to attract business and foster the development of our economic potential. In the case of the Norshor, that means investment in the cultural infrastructure to support the economic value, competitiveness and attractiveness of Duluth. A case can be made that supporting a vibrant arts and culture scene, and maintaining the historic character of our downtown, will bring value to the economic climate of our city and region. If you've read Richard Florida's Rise of the Creative Class, you'll understand the philosophies which motivate this.

A valid case can also be made that good parks, libraries, schools and water infrastructure will also attract/retain citizens in our community, thus adding value. IMHO, Hermantown is benefiting from Duluth's previous lack of investment in these areas.

What is going to happen at the NorShor is already a done deal. Don't you guys read the paper?

And another thing: These points that I'm bringing up here? I barely had time to get them out when the Norshor deal went through. The whole thing, from initial proposal to final purchase, happened in, like, three days. Who spends millions of dollars in three days? Duluth, that's who. You could barely hear yourself think, let alone question anything, what with all the cheering constituents and confetti in the streets.

Thank you for providing a link to John Ramos' article from 2007.  Great blog, and very well said.

I think I mostly have bad memories of their uses under Norm Coleman in St. Paul.  As I recall, they were used to lure corporate headquarters from suburban areas to Downtown, for example, so that Coleman could claim a renaissance downtown while net job creation for the region was zero.

Meanwhile, the city was at best neutral on tax base, as businesses in TIF districts don't contribute to the general fund via property taxes.

I guess I like the idea of spitting all taxes into a pot and then deciding how to spend them, rather than earmarking them.  You could do the same redevelopment work without TIF districts, but you would need to assert that those needs were more important than other local needs, rather than having those decisions made in advance.

I read the blog also and agree with emmadogs -- good stuff.  But I stick with my original statement.  The city is in control of the NorShor and already knows what it is going to do.  They have told us so in their news releases.  Also -- they earnestly believe that what they are doing will benefit our city.

We have plenty of creative people -- yes. And not really the economy to support them.  And the universities are the engine in other places but our universities are not big rich research institutions. (Nevertheless -- the tie between town and gown could be better.)

Creating jobs is something that everyone talks about but hardly anyone knows how to do.

So if you all were going to create a job, what would that job be?  What is your ideal job?  How could we get this thing moving?  It really is up to us -- not the city.

+1 Mickey D!

Giant golf course! Can you imagine! A giant, working windmill! Skyline Parkway hole! A tall-as-you loop de loop! Bob Dylan freak fetishist armory hole! FREE game if you get it in the clown's mouth! Lift Bridge hole! Raised Hole! Chester Park Ski Jump hole! Incline Railway hole!

I restate: David Salmela's mini golf course at Spirit Mountain is the worst miniature golf course I have ever played. Who was on that committee? Did that actually seem like a reasonably good idea to you?

And now I quit that job, so I really have nothing left.

Ramos, you have GOT to write your roman a clef novel, and make lots of money, then. Sucks that you stopped writing exposes about Duluth politics. I loved your blog, it was well-written and hard-hitting.

@Ramos, 

You done pounding your own pudding yet? "it depends on a healthy, vibrant economy ALREADY EXISTING" ... This is chicken and egg stuff. And it can be looked at from different perspectives. I contend that supporting the creative class in town will draw/retain more creatives AND the companies that rely on them. Only part of a comprehensive and sustainable solution to our economic woes.

Is DEDA golden? IDK, I don't know if I'm a full supporter. Seems like it was a vehicle to funnel tourism $$ back the the hospitality industry. The fact is that the TIF money would be spent one way or another. I favor preserving the NorShor (and other historic resources which make our city unique). Otherwise it would be shunted back into funding Canal Park developments. All that does is help sequester tourism dollars in the hands of a very few. Richard Florida is no Hack, he just has a different view than you. Grow up, there's a reason you're not getting paid to write. Don't quit the day job.

@Lundgren, Hermantown doesn't need a vibrant arts and culture scene, they have ours to leech off. The tax base that has fled Duluth because QOL in the neighborhoods moved there. During the past decade, families have suburbanized there. I wouldn't want to live there but lots of former Duluthians have moved there, our former tax base. That's my point.

I supported the NorShor sale.  It may be an economic white elephant and never make any money, but I actually think of it is a "public space." Yeah, like a park, or a library, it's an amenity.  Or will be ... I hope ... anyway. I respect Ramos and his arguments about how tax money should be spent.  I also appreciate how he can land a rhetorical punch and get a few back without losing his sense of humor.  He's kind of a Duluth "P.J. O'Rourke."  He's a treasure and I'd love to see him have a (paid) column somewhere.    

I also want to underscore what Baci said about Hermantown. I am not a fan, I would not like to live there and I have no idea what people are talking about when they say it is a wonderful place to live and raise kids.  When I was selling/delivering phone books (after my NorShor venture collapsed, ironically).  At that time I got to see nearly all of the "town."  From what I can tell about a third of it is 5-6 bedroom houses with 3-plus car garages in developments of about 30 houses each.  And in those developments about HALF of the houses are even occupied.  The best "quality of life" I really see there is that people can come to Duluth, use our parks, our libraries, appreciate our amenities like the Aquarium, the Zoo, the Lakewalk, Hartley ... you get the idea.  And they get to enjoy those amenities without paying our taxes ... so they have more money to shovel back into their crippling house payment.  I know there are some historic areas in Hermantown, I have a good friend who lives in one of those brick houses, but really I don't get the appeal of the place.  It certainly would not be appealing without Duluth right next door.  Hope I'm not offending Hermantowners there ...

So the other thing someone (I think Baci) mentioned was that the TIF's seemed to be a sort of slush fund to develop Canal Park and support existing large businesses pretty much focused around hotels and restaurants in that area.  I think that it is good to develop our core cities and Canal Park is sort of part of our core, but really I would say downtown, and specifically old downtown (and I'll add 1st St.) could use a bone once in awhile, too.  To me, that's what the NorShor purchase was about.  Developing an amenity that can be appreciated and used by many with some public money.  The other thing is that Ringsred ... when he gave Jim Gradishar the management contract for the "NorShor Experience" that was not an economic decision, it was a deliberate "f" you to the Duluth bureaucrats and businesses and it was a very effective public theater in that sense.  He was saying "Hey, you don't like the arts and cultural activities we're doing at the 'Shor?  Let's see if you like it with Fuzzy's place up on the mezzanine."  Of course his logic was flawed and I'm not defending it.  I guess I don't even want to attack it.  But it just felt like he was holding the place hostage and when there was a chance to get it from him and hopefully preserve it properly as the last of our Historic Theaters and a place that thousands and thousands of people across may generations have strong emotional ties to ... well, I supported it.

Wildgoose makes a good point about me being a treasure.