I think it's a great logo...but I do wish they hadn't given everything north of Highway 8 the Brigadoon treatment. It's like our part of the map is one step removed from being covered in drawings of sea serpents and warnings that "here be dragons"...
This thread will probably be a magnet for Tea-Baggers regurgitating the Faux News Kool-Aid they've been swilling. Authoritarians hate unions because they have a democratizing effect in the workplace. Heaven forbid!
@DSorenson. Democratizing effect?! That's priceless! Nothing like mandatory enrollment in a group that you want nothing to do with. I'll be laughing about that one for a while -- literally one of the funniest things I've ever read. Almost as funny as listening to Al Gore talking about global warming!!!
So what part of my original statement didn't you like? The part about the teachers getting fake doctor notes in order to skip out of their contractual duties? Or the part about the spineless DFL'ers sneaking out and hiding in the woods becuase they aren't getting their way? Or was it the part about the silver lining being that it's the beginning of the end for the corrupt unions that should have been banished to Canada years ago? Thank God for Walker. We need 49 more of him...
Please, tell me...
Jim, it's the name calling that gets your comments pulled. If you make your argument without referring to people as "low-life creatures," etc., it won't irk the moderators as much.
Also, arguments intended to persuade are preferred over rants intended to antagonize.
"History is a great teacher. Now everyone knows that the labor movement did not diminish the strength of the nation but enlarged it. By raising the living standards of millions, labor miraculously created a market for industry and lifted the whole nation to undreamed of levels of production. Those who attack labor forget these simple truths, but history remembers them."
- Martin Luther King Jr.
It would be nice to hear what Jim REALLY thinks instead of hearing (almost verbatim) what Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Rush spew all day on AM radio.
My advice to Jim would be to turn off the AM radio for a while and listen to what the workers are saying. The workers who spend 40 hours a week serving people like Jim. Workers who teach his kids, protect his family and spend their hard earned money at local businesses.
Jim...have you been too brainwashed by the hate speech to recognize this? Jim...I know it is easier to just repeat what the hate mongers tell you, but it is way more rewarding when you actually think up an idea on your own and then have a conversation with people, even those who you disagree with. Good luck to you in the future Jim. I think you should take your boring, old, conservative propoganda over to the Duluth Citizens Blog.
I guess I don't get it. The public voted Gov. Walker into office. One of the most important jobs of a Governor is to balance the budget. He came up with a plan and now some people are all pissed? I hear a lot of people saying "don't take away MY benefits" but then they agree that something has to go to reduce the spending deficit. It is a kind of NIMBY argument is it not?
Before you rip me a new one, I just want to say I feel for people on both sides of the issue.
GOP - We need to spend less to balance this deficit. Let's cut the salaries and benefits that the state employees are making to slow down the bleeding.
DEM- This is a violation of my rights! And how can you tell me you are going to take away the benefits I am entitled to? I must have a voice that can negotiate for me or we will all perish.
I pay taxes through 3 jobs, taxes pay state salaries. Therefore I pay state workers that make more money than I do and they have better benefits than most others I know...I never got to vote for that.....nor do I have highly paid people lobbying on my behalf for better benefits. Is it only your rights you are fighting for? How about my right to have my tax dollars used responsibly?
Gov. Walker is doing the job he was hired for; maybe people should pay better attention during the interview process.
The unions have agreed to the financial concessions in the bill. Walker is refusing to budge on the collective bargaining issue. They can negotiate a compromise that helps the shortfall and keeps the workers happy, but Walker says he wants nothing to do with it.
B-man...the union workers have already agreed to concessions that the Governor says he needs to balance the budget. Unfortunately, the Governor is taking this a step further by stripping them of their right to form a Union. This is unnecessary and unfair...he should be a TRUE leader and compromise like one.
B-man: Wisconsin had a budget SURPLUS before Walker was elected. Walker UNBALANCED the budget with a tax cut, creating a deficit, which he then placed onto the backs of public workers.
Despite the workers making concessions on wages and benefit premiums, Walker is still insisting on abridging the workers' right to collectively bargain.
Terrible politics.
Jim and B-Man...leave the PDD trolling to us big boys, ok?
Lojasmo: The surplus thing was debunked yesterday. Everyone has moved on to today's talking points.
Oh, and Jim, there is no DFL party in Wisconsin. Think about it; do a little research; you might figure this one out. If not, ask one of the protesting teachers, and thank them once they explain.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
PDF from the Wisconsin legislative fiscal bureau.
Showed a surplus of 56 million last June.
Walker's tax cuts equals roughly 100 million.
Do you really think I listen to Maddow?
Hmmmm. So that whole "democracy" thing ain't so much fun when you're not on the winning side?
[pops more popcorn and cracks another beer while watching the whole delicious and absurd spectacle]
I didn't say anything about Maddow. However, the debunking of that talking point that made the rounds yesterday does and also happens to source the document where she got the info to make that claim. That document just magically happens to be the same one you just sourced.
So yeah. Maybe you don't listen to Maddow (which I never said you did). I'm just trying to help you out and let you know you're a bit late to the party. You're welcome.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/
I have a few questions that I'm having a damn hard time getting answered. Left or right or center, I'm disappointed in the media right now. Can you do better?
1. Why are a few unions exempt? I've heard that fire and police not having collective bargaining would be "dangerous." What the hell does that mean?
2. If this measure is for the biennium starting next biennium, why would Walker start firing employees immediately?
3.How does getting rid of collective bargaining save money? Does anyone understand what bargaining in good faith means? If Walker wants to get rid of the unions, why doesn't he just say it?
4. Has anyone done a poll in Wisconsin on the issue? Can I get some people to help me in doing one?
The "exempt" unions are those that endorsed Walker during the campaign. At least one has since publicly said they regret the endorsement. The threats to fire people before the next biennium are real threats to those whose jobs are on the line, but you are right -- it's not about the budget. It is all about squashing the union. Getting rid of collective bargaining will only save money when you replace those workers with private contractors (who donated to Walker's campaign).
More politifact fun to show that TimK's last post was only sort of right:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/21/donna-brazile/donna-brazile-says-unions-supported-scott-walker-a/
Wisconsin is just another example of the super-rich using a shitty economic situation as an excuse to turn the middle class against itself so they can make a money grab.
I just saw this today and found it to be a great breakdown of income inequality (from an openly lefty publication) that uses a bunch of nerds from places like Harvard as its sources instead of asking the Koch brothers for stats (my favorite is part 3 "out of balance"):
It's the Inequality, Stupid
A fun bit of info on the poll that Paul posted is that Fox News published the results of the poll during a segment ... except the results were reversed to show that 61% of Americans are opposed to collective bargaining.
I guess if you don't like the stats, just switch 'em around. I'm sure some poor schmuck who's living paycheck to paycheck will use Fox's recreation to justify screwing his neighbor that's slightly better off.
Fox Reverses Results Of Gallup Poll To Claim Americans Oppose Union Collective Bargaining Rights
If FAUX is the only "news" you watch and FAUX is telling you that *they're* the only ones who're going to tell you the *truth,* and that the rest of the media outlets are lying to you...they can really pile it on to keep you pissed off...
There's a lot of whining going on about the number of "liburulz" running NPR, so NPR got defunded. Now, we're going to be stuck with listening to whatever the CEO of COMCAST wants you to believe, and what Rupert Murdoch says is the truth.
My thoughts on this whole deal are:
1: What is wrong with limiting the unions ability to get a raise above the consumer price index without a vote from the public? The public does pay their salaries and for their sweet benefits.
2: What is wrong about asking them to pay more for their benefits? They have already agreed to that much, so it isn't a big deal.
3: What is wrong with having the unions live by the same laws that protect the rest of us at our work places, instead of getting special representation? I've heard that losing those union reps. that can save their jobs when they might otherwise be fired is a huge part they are fighting for. If it is about bargaining pay, again see 1 and 2.
4: Overall I see Unions as yes, in the past being neccesary to ensure workers rights, and get us the nice laws we have today. I fail to see how in today's USA they are neccesary, except to give certain groups more rights than others. I don't mind private Unions as much because they are a private group negotiating with a private employer, if they strike ect., that company gets hurt and no one wins. Public Unions can, like in WI currently, shut down the services we rely on them to provide. They are a Public group negotiating with officials they have major power in putting and keeping in office, creating a no win for the public they serve and get paid by if something happens they don't like. I am against the fire and police forces being exempt from the bill in WI as I feel that public unions should not be allowed to exist, and if they are limited to being unable to negotiate big pay raises unless approved by the public, not allowed to force members to pay dues, and pay a bigger chunk of their benefits.
I've read a lot on this issue. I have a lot of family in public union jobs as well as friends, and they are all split down the middle. Roughly half support the bill in WI, roughly half don't, and there are a few who don't really care either way as long as they wouldn't lose their job. So please, don't go bashing on me saying get off the fox news kool aid or off the am dial. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. These are my thoughts on the subject and I'm open to polite discussion.
P.S. Paul, as to the poll you cited, further down in the same poll it also states that 46% feel that public unions are harmful, 45% feel they aren't. I'll try to link that Gallup poll and a Rassmusen poll as well on the subject so readers can get the full scoop.
Here is the Gallup poll Paul cited http://www.gallup.com/poll/146276/Scaling-Back-State-Programs-Least-Three-Fiscal-Evils.aspx
Here is the Ras one I mentioned http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2011/48_back_gop_governor_in_wisconsin_spat_38_side_with_unions
Slightly different numbers, but the whole of both polls is there to look through, not just snippets.
Jadiaz-
My issue with your third point, about having unions live by the same laws that protect private sector employees in similar jobs, is that you're missing the broader point. The laws that "protect" middle class private sector employees aren't working...and the laws "protecting" public employees aren't doing much/any better. But situations, like the one in WI, are being used to antagonize people into believing it's fat cat teachers and fire fighters who are to blame for the recession, the foreclosure crisis, skyrocketing personal debt, etc.
The rich are getting richer and the middle class is being duped into blaming each other for the fact that our piece of the pie is getting smaller and smaller. AND I LIKE PIE!
Again, check out the link above for "It's the Inequality Stupid" and take a minute to let the increases/decreases in income for different groups and the distribution of wealth sink in. We're arguing over pennies while they're grabbing the keys to the vault.
Whoa Bman- easy does it. You're on thin ice pal. Soon any of your logical, original thoughts will be associated with crazies, because as we all know, there aren't any left leaning crazies... And Paul, thanks for the info. Just remember this next time any of us with an opposing view is called a tool, T-bagger, or any other off-color remark. Seems as though you have a double standard that's only applied to those with a right leaning viewpoint. I get it. It's your sandbox. It would be nice though if you shared the toys with everyone. Hmmm, kind of apropo considering what the unions want.
Here's the deal. The choking sound coming from the bunny huggers is the realization that someone is actually standing up to their antiquated strong arm tactics, causing their throats to swell and cause difficulty swallowing (pun intended). They are used to bullying people into their system of control and fiscal blackmail, and have no other intelligent way of dealing with the issues. Fire their ass. Get teachers who want to teach. Put politicians into office that understand what their responsibility is, and are willing to do their job, not run like a coward when faced with an opposing view point. Fire their ass and move onto the next subject. RIP unions. Your time has come, and is soon to be gone.
It's not a double standard, Jim. You should see the names people call you!
It's a poorly enforced standard. Sometimes you get away with being a bunny hater.
Anyway, back to the issue at hand...
As someone who's worked for a soul-sucking and pocketbook-sucking corporation, to say we should all stoop down to the private sector level of insecurity while said corporations make profit off tactics to scare employees into submission and ridiculous concessions seems very naive. In 8 years, I saw my insurance co-pay, small potatoes, go from $10 a throw to paying 90 percent of the cost of the medical visit. All in the name of saving the company money as they demonized those greedy insurance companies.
Yes, we have laws protecting us from the industrial age atrocities -- child workers, long hours, safety -- but there are new realities: forced furloughs, a phalanx of lawyers to spurn any attempt at fighting wrongful termination/accusations/cutbacks, and the thought that your world can be generally turned upside down any day by your employer.
Sure, be jealous of unions, but fight the right fight in getting some of that security for yourself.
I've heard the argument that there should be no leverage by state workers because the government isn't out to make a profit. Right on. But the state is out to do things on the cheapest level it can. Thus you need protections on the other side of the economic balance.
Have unions overplayed in the past? Yes. And they should be swatted for it. But I'd hate to see a repeat of what Walker did in Milwaukee, turning union jobs over to private firms, who will only bid to make profit and have a lousy workforce as replacement. And then lawsuits and back pay that taxpayers foot.
I wince as much as anyone else when, say, I'm at a Billy Bragg concert and he goes off on the union talk. I'm there to hear music, damn it. But he said something last fall that stuck with me. The slippery slope he's seen in the UK the past five years with their own versions of Tea Party pols. He warned that we would see the same thing here, and the spoils all go to the corporate pocket. There is power in a union, not nearly as much as the corporations, but at least some leverage. Which side are you on?
Our power, on the private side, needs to be at the ballot box.
Tea Bagger will never stop being funny D-boy, maybe your sense of humor just needs to take 2.2 million Gigawatts to that portion of the brain which responds to humor from a Delorian doing 79 mph. Some things transcend time, plus I still use 'get-er-done' everyday as my own little 'picking myself up by my bootstraps' slogan.
And moderators, how could you so shamelessly delete my brilliant entente for Jim? I shat tears to harness those pearls of wisdom. Couldn't you just have excerpts, like on Fox?
Just now, a friend invited me to a 'Dirty Puppet Show.'
I responded, "Is it about the Bush Years?"
Paul is pretty even-handed when it comes to pulling posts with name calling. Trust me- I called certain people fucktards and it was taken down in a very timely manner.
Sorry Marion, don't bother going to the show, as you won't enjoy it. It parodies a President, who uses an intern to fulfill his wanderlust for skanky hoes. It's pretty graphic, especially the part when his "wife" gives him a beat-down after finding out he used the same cigar that he shared with her earlier in the day. Yuccch. Funny- thinking of those years with the Hill-Billys makes me chuckle. Back then I never thought it could be worse. Now I look at where we are now, with an inept con-man in office, and I shudder to think how easy it was for someone to bamboozle their way into the highest office in the land. Even more ironic is how good Bush looks after a couple of years of Hussein...
I also noticed my post has less a chance of being canceled if I have syntax error, then the English nerds can sit around and laugh. I got flustered being censored, then I dropped the grammar ball. Dammit!
Plus, I just fucked off another two hours in the Permuda Triangle, no wonder my kitchen remodel is going nowhere fast. To tie back into topic though, someone should spill coffee on that Walker guy.
Jim, you don't see the humor in going after skanky hoes? The cigar thing, that was all priceless. You just need a hug man. I loved me that Slick Willy.
I think the prank blogger call made Scott Walker show his cards and the true him. Hard to back peddle from that. It made the National news. Mud on our faces again. The sad part is the middleclass fighting against themselves is right. Meanwhile the wealthy are smiling as they got their tax cuts and they aren't bothered by this mess.
Wes Scott said it. The rich and powerful are becoming richer and more powerful, and the rest of us are fighting amongst ourselves for the crumbs they're throwing us. Sad that some people are such dupes, they don't even get it. Public employees, unions, are *not* the enemy.
Lojasmo: I thought you didn't listen to Maddow? I don't get it. Why are you using her producer's correction request to for what they debunked from what she said about what you said? Especially since the correction request is based on something she said that they didn't include in their correction that you didn't include at all?
Sorry. I know that was all messy. I'm basing it all on your reply of "ahem".
To encapsulate, these whorish chimeras of the modern right are figuring out ways to appear like saviors of the common man, the resurrection of Christ in their own image, by "not raising taxes" so they can "balance the budget," by ending unions, getting in bed with insurance/drug/medical lobbyists to stick it further to the middle class, all the while endlessly propping up the war on drugs (so theirs will sell better), with a side war on poor peasant farmers and their innocent children. War on the middle class, building more crime perpetuating prisons for nonviolent offenders who are themselves victims of the drug war, and other wars on freedom. Small potatoes compared to the cost of Billy's B.J. (most expensive oral of all time). If only my skull was as thick as Jim's and the like, it could crack a moose bone, and none of this would matter.
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-Berv
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about 14 years ago"History is a great teacher. Now everyone knows that the labor movement did not diminish the strength of the nation but enlarged it. By raising the living standards of millions, labor miraculously created a market for industry and lifted the whole nation to undreamed of levels of production. Those who attack labor forget these simple truths, but history remembers them." - Martin Luther King Jr.James
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about 14 years agoI've got a poll for you right here, buddy. How do you like this poll?
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